Nov 182009
Medical Personnel find themselves in a quandry over sentiments expressed by the President of the United States.
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Haber Siyaset
Medical Personnel find themselves in a quandry over sentiments expressed by the President of the United States.
GREAT VIDEO!!!!!!
“well, they’re human lives. . and they’re sacred. Throw them in the trash”
LOL
OK aborted fetises heres the choices: Use them to save millions of lifes and cure ppl with serious illness. Or throw them in the trash. Those fetises are dying anyway so why not use them to save ppl? I dont understand people who think this is wrong.
LOL love it
They may be developing cells, but that doesn’t change the fact that the natural course they are on at this point will not lead to becoming a live, born human being, so the tumor analogy works with your own refuting of it–that it is “not a developing human being”–because neither is an unimplanted embryo–not until it is actually implanted anyway–then its natural course IS to be born, thus, then it has different rights. Put another way, at this point the difference is only a matter of degree
The only reason that they are harvested is because they are developing cells. They develop into every cell in the mature body, whether together or artificially separated from each other. The inner cell mass of the 3 day old blastocyst is the entire human body at that stage of this individual’s development.
Except that I’m not doing that. Pro-choicers often do, when they actually ARE talking about a developing human. But the unimplanted embroys used for ESCR are not “developing humans” yet, because the course that they are on at the time the cells are harvested never will lead to a birth
To compare a developing human to a tumor is extremely inaccurate and just plain stupid.
To date, correct, because the knowledge of this technology has only existed for about ten years or so. But as to “forseeable future”–many researchers in this field would disagree with you on that statement. And an unimplanted embryo can only be considered a human being in the same way a tumor can, because until it is implanted it is not on any track that would EVER lead to birth–once it is implanted it is. I agree about “save me now”–research needs to move MUCH faster on this.
Lives saved to date: 0
Lives saved for the foreseeable future: 0
It( the embryo ) is already a human being. To use it to grow as fodder for sale is all about using humans as property.
Save me now.
Close this can of worms before it can be opened any more.
It’s not about property, it’s about saving lives. They never will be implanted, and if left alone they simply sit there for eternity doing no one any good and never becoming a human being.
Implant’em or leave them alone.
They shouldn’t be treated as property.
But again, the point being that any addition of cells before implantation do not put it on any path towards being born, because they are useless without implantation or artificially norishing them. If this is the case, then you would have oppose IVF altogether, which is a seperate debate completely, because they CANNOT not make more than they implant, because most of such procedures require multiple tries before any of them take
But until implantation whatever development in terms of increasing numbers of cells isn’t ultimately going anywhere–it is not on a path toward becoming a person, because, yet again, left alone at this point, it would not become one. Like you say, without being implanted (a natural sustainence) the only sustaining possibility is artificially, and if nothing is done to it at all, it will stay exactly as is. That’s the difference here.
This individual’s continuous development does not cease until his/her death or complete maturity as an adult.
A developing human embryo left as a whole may not be survivable in a dish past a week or 2, unless it’s artificially pulled apart, true.
That’s why humans shouldn’t be developed in dishes in the 1st place.
If you conceive it in a dish, implant it. Don’t make more than you implant.
Incorrect. In 3 days the human has ALREADY developed and matured from one cell(zygote)within 24h of conception, to this 150-300 cell organism. Wow. Another week, there will be thousands of cells. Millions/billions within weeks.
It is at THIS point(3-5d) that it(IVF embryo in dish) can be 1. implanted as a whole 2. misused and artificially nurtured to develop in pieces 3. frozen for later use 4. left alone without nutrients to die.
From conception there is a CONTINUUM of development.
Once again though, it was pulled apart at a stage where no development was taking place, nor could it without external forces (implantation or some kind of artificial nutrition). I never cited “spare” status–indeed, the two 3-5 day old (unimplanted) embryos are identical–they BOTH lack any development, and thus, are not a “developing person” as you rightfully pointed out that a tumor is not either. But being alive and human are not enough for these rights, as the tumor point illustrates.
Not exactly though. There can be no development–frozen or not–if an unimplaneted embryo is simply left alone–yes we can make it develop through artifical means, but the mere act of creating the embryo does not create development, and that is why until it is implanted (or is developing in some other way on the path toward personhood) it does not have the same status.
And REALLY, the ONLY reason that it’s no longer a potential whole person is because YOU ( the lab ):
1. Conceived it in a dish and did NOT implant it.
2. Artificially pulled it apart at its blastocyst stage.
The 3-5 day old “spare” embryo is IDENTICAL to the 3-5 day old embryo not considered a “spare”.
The issue: Human experimentation. Mature infant living human parts as a commodity.
The “spareness” of a human embryo does not determine its humanness.
The intact infant vs. for sale cells.
Incorrect( and by the way, I’m enjoying this intelligent debate ). The stagnancy in this embryo’s development is derived from it ARTIFICIAL freezing in liquid nitrogen. Once thawed, if given the appropriate nutrients, it can and will and does develop. At present, technology allows(forces) its development in separate dishes.
An intact embryo implanted in 9 months is newborn heart, lungs, pancreas, nerves, etc.
Cultured stem cells in 9 months is the same stuff in different petrie dishes.
But here’s the problem with your logic. What is used to make the stem cell lines in embryonic stem cell research is also not a DEVELOPING person–there is no development taking place until it is implanted. The development you refer to of growing in petri dishes for these stem cell lines happens once it is no longer even a POTENTIAL person.
To make my point more clearly about how we arrive at this conclusion–I asked you if you claim anything that is alive and human to have the rights granted by the 13th amendment, you would have to say a tumor has those same rights. Now, in response, you countered that a tumor is not a developing person. (Which is exactly the answer I give when some rabid pro-choicer tries to make that argument to me, and it’s absolutely accurate).
Ah, but you forget one very important detail. It may not remain stagnant when it is cultured in petri dishes, but by that point it is no longer even a potential human being–it no longer CAN develop into a fully formed human being. And at the time that it had the physical capability to do so, it WAS still stagnant, and would have remained so if not used for these purposes. There is never a time where it is BOTH developing AND capable of becoming a fully formed human being
It sure doesn’t remain stagnant when you guys force it to grow in dishes.
It could more easily be implanted as it could be pulled apart and cultured.
It as primarily as a physician that I oppose the use of any humans for experimentation, or for their use as fodder. A grave violation of the Hippocratic oath.
In my opinion, a corporation should not own or misuse or destroy any living human individual at any stage of its life cycle.
Pretty simple stuff.
Did you REALLY say you are a DOCTOR?? It’s NOT POSSIBLE to not make more than you implant because in IVF cases, it often takes multiple tries before one takes. And an unimplanted embryo is not developing at all. It is stagnant and will stay exactly as is if left alone–that’s very different from a developming individual. Once implanted, yes, it is, which is why I’m solidly pro-life. But this is a seperate issue.